Monday, May 1, 2017

turks copied greek music comment

Buddy12
Buddy121 year ago
I don't know why people think it's influenced by Turkish music, there were no turks in anatolia in the 11th century! 
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 J. Ross Mayhew
J. Ross Mayhew1 year ago
+Buddy12 Perhaps not "Turkish" per se, but it is most certain that much of Byzantine music has a certain "Middle Eastern" feel to it: it is not the same as "Western" or European music, and that is a fact.  Middle Eastern rhythms, harmonic progressions, intrumentations and melodies -   these can all be found in abundance in Byzantine music, making it delightfully Eastern and exotic to our western ears.
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 cannabisPREVENTION
cannabisPREVENTION1 year ago
+J. Ross Mayhew Middle Eastern music doesn't even use the 12 step scale that Western music does, everything you said you just pulled out of your ass.
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 Burak Korkmaz
Burak Korkmaz1 year ago (edited)
+Buddy12 Actually there are  writtings that indicate there are turks far more earlier than 1071, with Malazgirt Turks entered Anatolia as rulers I persume. On the other hand it is not required to be effected by Byzantine Culture. East Romans were here as rulers till mid 15th century , so :)
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 TheusZeusDeus
TheusZeusDeus1 year ago (edited)
+Burak Korkmaz It depends what you mean as ''Anatolia". Iraq? Turks did raids but did not rule. The first rulers were Seljuks and they ruled over eastern and central Anatolia since the end of the 11th century but then soon were breaking apart. They did also some short-lived raids in Western Anatolia but they never ruled there. Ottomans rose from a break-away oligarchy of Seljuks that intermarried with Alexios Komnenos' nephew, Ioannes (you Turks called him Tzelepes) and it is this Ioannes Tzelepes who is the real patriarch of Ottomans, not Osman, who was a descendant of Tzelepes. This is the reason that they sat themselves besides Constantinople and wanted to take the city.
At any case, Turkic music is known to us, it is still heard in Turkmenistan and parts of Uzbekistan so we know it is quite different to "Anatolian" music (= Greek, Kappadocian, Armenian music). The Greek Minor Asian music was simply an eastern part of the overall medieval Greek music. Turks afterall in their vast majority were muslimified local ex-christians and as such it was only natural they continued to play the same music (Greek, Kappadocian, Armenian according to localities). As with many other things, it is difficult to call something ''turkish" when it was pre-existing locally and only continued by islamified people. Turkish has to be something that was brought by the Turks (i.e. the original ones, the Mongols), not found locally and pre-existing.

Note that we do not precise this in order to belittle modern Turks but to note the history of it.
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 Tengiz Türk
Tengiz Türk1 year ago
+Buddy12  Persian, Arabic, Balkan and Greek effects... Some of the byzantine musics has got density of arabic - persian maqams. Some music's has got greek melodies. Byzantine music took some important things from Turks also, for example 'drums'... Just byzantine church uses drums in their rituals. Arabs took alot of poem and melodies from Byzantine, also...
Finally, Turkish Classical songs has got some persian, some arabic effects as a byzantine music ; but includes Turkish melodies, mostly. Especially Turkish folk songs entirely occurs with Central Asian originated nomadic Turkic songs. not middle eastern.
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 TheusZeusDeus
TheusZeusDeus1 year ago
+Tengiz Türk " Byzantine music took some important things from Turks also, for example 'drums' "

Byzantine music predates the arrival of Turks in the region - how could it be influeced by Turks?

Drums are some of the most ancient musical instruments used by all cultures all around the world, how can you claim these to be ''turkish"?

Byzantine - or more correct Eastern Roman - music is a music of its locality i.e. ranging from the local musics of eastern, central Minor Asia, Aegean and south Italy.
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 Sonny
Sonny1 year ago
+Buddy12 Turks actually adopted this music as their own
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 TheusZeusDeus
TheusZeusDeus1 year ago (edited)
+Konstantinopoljski Original Turkish music is heard today in central Asia and it bears no resemblance to this of course.
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 omnipotentum
omnipotentum1 year ago (edited)
+Buddy12 ignorant people keep saying nonsense from their stereotype without knowing real history..turkish music and arab music copied from greek music that's why middle eastern music sounds same to greek music...west music or european music also influenced from greek music but these ignorant people keep saying as if greek is diffrent or same from others...ridiculous...
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 Harambe
Harambe1 year ago
+Buddy12 Vice versa Turkish Art music is influenced by Byzantine Secular Music. I'm a Turk myself and i know it for the best.
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 Massa' Tobias
Massa' Tobias1 year ago
+Buddy12 Both genres of music have roots on ancient greek music, itself taking elements from arabic and persian music at the time of Hellenism. The whole region shares the basics instruments and thus sounds very similar.
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 TheusZeusDeus
TheusZeusDeus1 year ago
+Steel Patterns Music is like food. You like it, you get inspired by it, you then make it your own way.
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 omnipotentum
omnipotentum1 year ago (edited)
+Steel Patterns the very current music of middle east is entirely newly invented greek music itself..you can just call it copy and paste job....it's well documented that how arabs took greek music so they call music in arabic musigi which is came from greek word...ancient arabic and persian music sounded nothing like this or what they play nowadays...because they literally copied greek music that was newly invented in hellnic period(like a lot of things invented in hellenic period, music was innovated also, most famous example is music scales invented by phythagoras)... but it's right, before this, there were common music shared throughout mediterranean area...but that was not exactly current greek and middle east music because greek had innovated the music in from hellenic period to byzantine period...

now sadly greek music is known as middle eastern music to people because misconception of westerners who contacted greek music from arab empire and greek people are discredited from making the 'greek music'...
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 TheusZeusDeus
TheusZeusDeus1 year ago
+omnipotentum I do not share that opinion. There are influences both ways. The very current Greek music is also influenced by middle eastern music too. It is a cross-breeding for both. Greek music like food was always between the two worlds and thus a world of its own. The same does not hold true for overall culture as the Greek is clearly the european culture at its essence sharing nothing with asiatic cultures even of the most nearby geography (e.g. Turkey). Music and food can be exchanged but basic civilizational concepts and societal structures not really.
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 omnipotentum
omnipotentum1 year ago (edited)
+TheusZeusDeus yes there was influenced from middle east even before but what I am saying is greeks in hellenic period innovated and invented new music and that was influenced back to middle east...what middle easterners listen to is greek music itself which was newly innovated from middle eastern music...these melodies and scales itself were newly invented by greeks...just like a car...you can say wheel is first invention of car but the car that germans invented and invention of engine is entirely different thing...
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 TheusZeusDeus
TheusZeusDeus1 year ago
+omnipotentum Interesting. Do you have some sources (not demanding you hard work, just 1-2 references to orientate me).
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 Massa' Tobias
Massa' Tobias1 year ago
+omnipotentum It's like the byzantines themselves. They were not entirely greek because their entire polictical, military and economical structure was in a roman format, but not roman either since they spoke greek, dressed like greeks and also were the first and supposedly unchanged christians. They got the best of both worlds to come up with something better than both.
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 TheusZeusDeus
TheusZeusDeus1 year ago
+Steel Patterns The Eastern Roman Empire was the continuation of the Old Roman Empire thus at its basis still a multi-national Empire that strived to use religion as a unifying element. Since religion alone was not enough, it added the Greek language in which the christian religion was originally written and spread, no matter if it did not impose it on other nations by force (though the Patriarch of Rome, i.e. Pope, did that too in the west with Latin which was not of course the original language of christianity's texts).

Yet, in spite of the Roman institutions, christian religion and spread of Greek language to most of the Empire's subjects (the latter already having been done since Hellenistic-Roman times - even earlier the Latins were fine with Greek spreading in the East as they themselves admitted), the reality is that the biggest part of the Empire were ethnic Greeks. Initially about the 40-50% of the population being by far the biggest ethnic group in, and later on with the loss of Egypt and Syria, this going up to 75-85%. No matter if Emperors came mostly from the military ranks, thus more often from the borders (eastern and northern), thus more often of non-Greek or half-Greek ancestries, the reality is that the bulk of the Empire's bureaucracy was populated by Greeks and it was that bureaucracy that run affairs in the Empire, not just the Emperors, Emperors whom the oligarchies were changing like they changed their silk chitons, LOL!

Any Empire is defacto mutlinational but there always a core ethnic group that sustains it. The British Empire was not 100% English but the English were the core nation. The core nation of the French Empire was the Franks not the Bretons or the Basques. The core nation of Austrohungarian Empire was not the Hungarians but the Austrian Germanics. The earier Persian Empire incorporated many nations but the core element were the Persians and then the outer core element were their fellow tribes Medians who first had created the Median Empire (thus in the eyes of Greeks Persians were still called Medians for long enough). Similarly the Eastern Roman Empire was a multinational Empire but with its core element being Greeks. People get often confused because it is difficult for them to grasp how the Roman Empire evolved into keeping the Eastern part, not even the very city of Rome itself, and then being undertaken by another ethnic group, the Greeks with the Latins largely remaining outside and even being considered once again as a barbarians.

Well, one needs to to take into account the massive time periods we talk about. It is not about 1-2 centuries. We talk of an evolution going on for half a millenia from the mid-Roman Era into mid-Eastern Roman Era with a transitional period between 200 AD to 600 AD that is about 400 years. Just think of the changes that happened in Europe in the last 400 years!
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 Thiseas LostInLabyrinth
Thiseas LostInLabyrinth1 year ago
+Steel Patterns  There where no Arabs around where the Greeks ruled the eastern Med Sea (From Alexander's years to the years of the Romans. And nothing came out of the Arab desert before that either.
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 Harambe
Harambe1 year ago (edited)
+Thiseas LostInLabyrinth Not neccesarily true, Great Alex ruled over a part of Sahara desert  which was contiguous to egypt,  several arabic tribes and also expanded his country's borders all the way to arabian peninsula. One might deduce the idea their cultures might have interacted  eachother. 
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 TheusZeusDeus
TheusZeusDeus1 year ago
+immrkuby Music and food of course travelled much faster through commerce and travels both before and after such conquest events - so it is difficult to just attribute it to one conqueror or another.
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 Harambe
Harambe1 year ago
+TheusZeusDeus Yes, being under a certain reign just speeds up this process. 
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 TheusZeusDeus
TheusZeusDeus1 year ago
+immrkuby Very true. A conquest followed by some new Imperial system opens up wider trade routes thus speeding up cultural exchange processes which may have been pre-existing and which may exist after the demise of this system.
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 Massa' Tobias
Massa' Tobias1 year ago
+TheusZeusDeus It's like Mongols and beubonic plague. It could and had happened before, they just made it a lot easier.
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 Geo 33
Geo 333 months ago
Buddy12 exactly turkish people were nomads mongols and had no music
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 TheusZeusDeus
TheusZeusDeus3 months ago
+Geo 33 Turks had a music of theirs but it has nothing to do with Minor Asian music. You can still hear it in Central Asia and it is a totally different sort of music. What is called "turkish music" today is largely a Minor Asian substrate with influences from Iran and the Arab world. Which basically is unsurprising.
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 omnipotentum
omnipotentum1 month ago
+TheusZeusDeus its greek music that arabs copied...
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 Eliana Ritsoni
Eliana Ritsoni3 weeks ago
Of course. They should shut up on anything that is not coming from central asian nomads. A nomad moving around to survive cannot possibly have access to those instruments and knowledge of that scale and instruments, this can only be the result of a stable, well founded culture that evolves within the local environmental stability, knowledge cultivation and evolution of time.
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 Stavros Vasileiadis
Stavros Vasileiadis3 weeks ago
the westerns didnt use 12 step scales either at the time this music was dominating. there was no western music either during most of byzantine period. if u hear closely the western music when it begun, at 10th-14th century u will clearly see byzantine-eastern influence in it.
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 omnipotentum
omnipotentum3 weeks ago (edited)
true but west had traditional celtic music which is amazing as well...listen to celtic music....!!!
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 jone smith
jone smith6 days ago
i think it opposite the byzantine ifnluance the ottman music after conquer of Constantinople
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 And Sty
And Sty23 minutes agoHighlighted reply
Buddy12 how comes tuks always pop up on greek sites? If eveyone would do good reading you woul know and you wouldn need to sneek around greek sites to be tought something.  But thats what your ancestors were als doing: sneeking around greeks, trying to copy them, failing and than postulating they were the ones copying you :D
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_8aSrsTlCE&lc=z13uu3dhdszhjxsgr04cel2aitqpet5yl30.1493623491039006

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